Episode highlight

> Humans are incredibly complex to capture in computer graphics due to our evolved ability to detect subtle nuances in faces and emotions, making it crucial to accurately represent expressions and movements. The detail required for realistic rendering goes beyond mere shapes; factors like skin transparency and muscle dynamics play a significant role in how we perceive realism, revealing that even the slightest imperfection can jolt us into the uncanny valley.

> The challenge of rendering elements like hair is profound, where approximations must be made to simulate physical interactions without getting lost in computational overload. It’s a delicate dance of intricate systems—if just one component falters, the entire illusion collapses and we instinctively know something is off; that nuanced interplay is key to achieving true realism.

Introduction

> Being at the forefront of the gaming industry has been an incredible journey. From the early days of programming to creating groundbreaking technologies like Unreal Engine and Fortnite, it's been about pushing boundaries and transforming how we experience games.

> The balance between technological advancement and creative innovation is key. It's not just about creating powerful tools, but also empowering the community to shape the future of gaming.

10,000 hours programming

> The moment I discovered programming at my brother's house with that first IBM PC was transformative; "I was just blown away with the capabilities of computers at the time." Those initial experiences, from coding simple text-based games to developing a full compiler, ignited a passion that has never waned.

> Reflecting on my journey, "the friction and the pain is the guide to learning in programming." I learned that every setback I faced was a stepping stone, teaching me to navigate the complexities and limitations of programming languages, which ultimately shaped my growth as a programmer and innovator.

Advice for young programmers

> Continual learning through projects and experiments, from storing data to writing complex programs, laid the foundation for creating successful projects like the Unreal Engine.

> Embracing challenges and connecting diverse fields of knowledge, even seemingly unrelated ones like engineering and math, can lead to groundbreaking innovations like the Google search engine technology.

> The value of freedom and time in youth for organic learning and exploration, as society today places more emphasis on structure and credentialism rather than true learning and skill development.

Video games in the 80s and 90s

> My love for video games has always been intertwined with my passion for programming—“I get more enjoyment out of programming than anything else in the world.” Playing early games like Adventure for the Atari 2600 ignited that spark in me, showing me that the right tools could unlock immense creativity.

> Experiencing text-based games like Zork made me realize that “the more powerful tools you had, the more creativity you could unleash.” This realization drove me to explore programming in depth, breaking down the mechanics behind the games I loved, which ultimately paved my path to creating innovative experiences like Fortnite.

Epic Games origin story

> The journey from building a text editor to creating a successful game like ZZT was unexpected but taught me the power of pivoting and embracing possibilities.

> User experience testing with ZZT players laid the foundation for Epic's focus on creating tools for both gamers and creators, shaping the company's success and resilience in the game industry.

> Sharing tools like the editor with players enabled them to become creators too, leading to a philosophy of empowering everyone to build amazing things, reflected in Epic's commitment to offering free tools and fostering a growing ecosystem over time.

Indie game development

> Creating something unique is essential. "One of the critical things that Epic always worked hard to do was to make something different," and focusing on a niche audience allowed us to thrive. Rather than competing head-to-head with massive companies, sharing our games freely helped build a community and minimize the friction for players.

> The journey wasn't lonely; it was filled with connection. Seeing kids in my neighborhood have fun with my games was incredibly motivating. The personal feedback from players made everything worth it, turning potential risks into exciting opportunities. If you can engage and resonate with even a small audience, it can lead to sustainable growth and reinvestment in your craft.

Unreal Engine

> The shift to 3D gaming during Wolfenstein and Doom's era was groundbreaking: "I think Wolfenstein was one of the most amazing moments of my own life just being able to like you said in real time move about a three-dimensional world."

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> Unreal Engine development showed the power of talent over traditional management: "Epic has often done things that most companies will have failed at and we succeed... because of the sheer talent and willpower of the people involved."

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> Building an interdisciplinary team in gaming was crucial for success: "Gaming really does require all the best people across all the creative disciplines working together... Just the sheer passion and dedication made it work."

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> Programming during the Unreal Engine development involved a focus on optimization techniques: "It was just like a magical time where a human could actually understand exactly what the CPU was doing under the hood and could write code that exactly targeted that."

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> Engineering breakthroughs like Nanite in Unreal Engine 5 showcase the blend of art and technical excellence: "It's super cool how underneath the actual experience of beautiful detailed scenery there's just incredible engineering... to bring ultra-realistic simulation of reality in real time."

Technical details of Unreal Engine

> Creating Unreal Engine was a huge gamble but it was rooted in a clear vision: "We’re not just building a game for players to play; we’re also building tools that could be used for building that game or any other game." The moment other companies reached out to license our engine, I realized we had a lifeline that we could leverage to support both the creative developers and our ambitions, fundamentally shaping Epic's dual mission of technology innovation and supporting the gaming community.

> Throughout this journey, I've come to appreciate the importance of collaboration; our success relied heavily on engaging with artists and designers, building a community where "everybody took that very seriously." That commitment to support not only fueled our growth but has also remained at the heart of our mission to empower creativity across industries beyond gaming.

Constructive solid geometry

> One key technical challenge I faced was implementing constructive solid geometry in real time, which required a 30-hour coding session to figure out all the special cases and make it work.

> Another highlight was the importance of considering edge cases in geometry algorithms to ensure efficiency and accuracy, stressing that the devil lies in the details and that addressing the 1% of issues is the real challenge.

Dynamic lighting

> Understanding the intricacies of computer graphics has taught me that “the laws of physics are clear, but the complete solutions are immensely slow.” This realization pushed us to innovate and adapt, leading to techniques like light mapping that allowed us to make complex lighting both practical and efficient in Unreal Engine.

> I’ve always marveled at how artists, when given the right tools, can push the boundaries of creativity beyond what I, as a programmer, ever thought possible. It’s fascinating to witness the “beautiful coupling between engineering and artistry,” where constraints lead to revolutionary artistic expressions.

Volumetric fog

> The process of creating real-time volumetric fog in Unreal was inspired by a screenshot of a GPU rendering foggy room with light sources that created a magical effect with light fall-off, similar to being in a foggy street with street lamps above. This inspired a 30-hour coding session to figure it out.

> The integration of fog with light in real-time involved mathematical concepts like the line integral, transforming inverse square functions, and calculating fog accumulation based on the position of the eye and the surface point being viewed. This complex process led to the development of volumetric lighting in Unreal, despite later discovering that the original inspiration from a hardware company was achieved through rendering from 3D Studio Max, showcasing the journey from inspiration to realization despite challenges and constraints.

John Carmack

> The dedication John Carmack has toward achieving the best results in code is something I truly admire. His relentless pursuit of perfection, being willing to discard previous iterations, emphasizes that when performance is critical, we must continuously iterate until we reach an ideal solution.

> Seeing how both of our journeys have shaped the future of gaming is incredibly inspiring. Despite the advancements in hardware, creating ultra-realistic and dynamic environments remains a challenge, reminding us that innovation is still about solving complex problems under uncertainty.

Evolution of Unreal Engine

> It's astounding how Unreal Engine has evolved over 30 years to keep up with hardware advancements, like the massive performance gains in CPUs and GPUs. The rendering team has been key in optimizing the engine for each new hardware generation, from software rendering in Unreal Engine 1 to Nanite micropolygon geometry in Unreal Engine 5.

> While many aspects of Unreal Engine have advanced significantly, some core elements like file management and networking systems have remained relatively unchanged since 1998. The shift from single-threaded to multi-threaded game simulation in Unreal Engine 6 is a daunting yet necessary step to address long-standing limitations and bring the technology in line with modern computing standards.

Unreal Engine 5

> The craftsmanship behind Unreal Engine 5 is just astonishing; it’s the artists and technical wizards that bring these immersive worlds to life, creating environments with “infinite detail” that feel “super real.”

> I find the complexity of lighting and shadow play incredibly fascinating—each layer of light interacts beautifully, and it’s like a magic trick that blurs the lines of what we think is possible in real-time rendering.

> Experiencing something as simple as watching a fire and smoke interact in a scene can be mesmerizing; it’s that kind of immersion that captures the essence of true art, making you feel the cold of the snow and the warmth of the flames all at once.

Creating realistic humans

> Creating ultra-realistic humans in computer graphics is incredibly challenging due to the detailed expectations we have of faces and the need to capture emotions authentically. The Metahuman initiative is a long-term project to achieve this realism by capturing high-resolution data from diverse individuals to recreate a wide range of facial expressions accurately.

> The complexity of rendering realistic human faces involves multiple systems and aspects of computer graphics, requiring precision in lighting, hair rendering, and features like subsurface scattering to achieve authenticity. Achieving perfection in digital humans is crucial as any imperfection can break the immersion and lead to the uncanny valley effect.

> Tools like Metahuman Creator and Metahuman Animator in Unreal Engine provide developers with advanced capabilities to create and animate digital humans effectively. While these tools enhance productivity and quality, the journey towards absolute photorealism and complete control over every aspect of digital humans is ongoing, indicating there is still much work to be done in this field.

Lumen global illumination

> Light fundamentally shapes our perception of reality, and in developing Lumen, we focused on mimicking that by creating a system for global illumination that calculates how light interacts in a scene. It's all about capturing the subtlety of how light bounces off surfaces — when a red wall reflects light onto a white floor, it transforms the entire scene. This intricate dance of light and shadow gives depth and realism, making environments feel truly alive.

> The evolution of technology now empowers artists to just build their scenes and place lights without getting bogged down in technical specifics. The magic lies in making these powerful tools accessible, enabling storytellers to craft immersive experiences that resonate deeply with audiences. The algorithms underpinning this realism create not just visuals but emotional connections, opening up a new frontier for creativity in video games and film alike.

Movies

> The use of Unreal Engine in the film industry is revolutionizing the way movies are made, with advancements like LED wall panels displaying real-time computer graphics. This shift improves lighting quality and overall realism in films, enhancing the actors' performances and the end results significantly.

> Despite the excitement around generative AI, there is a need for a nuanced approach. AI's consistency issues and lack of holistic scene understanding pose challenges in video production. Rather than replacing human creatives, AI can multiply their creative power, enabling faster and higher-quality content creation through collaboration.

> The integration of AI in tools like Unreal Engine offers promise but also raises concerns about job displacement. Embracing these technologies as tools that enhance human creativity and productivity can lead to positive outcomes. The key lies in learning to leverage AI assistance for tasks like generating boilerplate code, freeing up time for more complex, innovative decisions in programming.

Simulating reality

> - The journey to simulating reality, particularly human interactions, is progressing rapidly and convincingly; “we're getting shockingly close” with technology that could create compelling human simulations within the next five to ten years, despite the immense challenges involved in replicating human emotion and intent.

> - Imagining a future where we create ultra-realistic simulations raises ethical questions about the nature of suffering and empathy; “there's a line we can't cross” when it comes to creating realistic humans that experience pain, love, and loss—a concept that could lead to fascinating legal and moral dilemmas.

> - Ultimately, as a game developer, the focus should remain on fun and entertainment, not serving as a substitute for reality; “we're here to make people's lives better by entertaining them” and providing a diversion, rather than overstepping into creating alternate realities where people might want to stay permanently.

Metaverse

> The metaverse is about multiplayer social gaming experiences where friends can have fun together in any way they want. Games like Fortnite Battle Royale capture the essence of the metaverse, especially when players across different platforms can join in a single game experience, creating a true social experience beyond just a multiplayer game.

> We are still in the early days of the metaverse, similar to the early days of the internet back in 1992. There is a long way to go to reach the ultimate version of it, but with initiatives like Fortnite Battle Royale and Fortnite Creative, we are on track to expand and evolve the metaverse to include more creators, worlds, and gaming genres for people to enjoy together.

Fortnite

> Fortnite's journey began with a simple idea, stemming from our desire to experiment with smaller online games after wrapping up Gears of War. It started as a fun project where teams could create something in just a week, resulting in a game that emphasized building forts and defending them against zombies. "The building aspect of it was incredibly fun," and that initial excitement led us to further develop its potential through ongoing iterations.

> Transitioning to a more stylized, Pixar-like art direction proved to be a pivotal moment for Fortnite's mainstream appeal. We recognized that "having a visually pleasing art style" makes gameplay more inviting, avoiding the intense pressure often found in realistic shooters. As we evolved from the Save the World mode to the explosive success of Battle Royale, we saw an unprecedented growth, skyrocketing our team and revenue, and establishing Epic Games at the forefront of the gaming industry.

Scaling

> Building scalable online backend systems to support millions of concurrent users required intense work, but the foundation laid by the online team made it achievable, saving Fortnite from failure and ensuring a seamless user experience.

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> The future of gaming lies in federating social ecosystems and unifying economies across platforms, allowing players to seamlessly move between games with shared identities and cosmetics, creating a more cohesive and enjoyable gaming experience.

> Fortnite's success as a creator economy is attributed to the innovative revenue sharing model, where profits from the item shop are distributed based on sources of engagement, creating a $400 million creator economy that can serve as a scalable model for other ecosystems and industries.

Game economies

> Large scale multiplayer social gaming is not just a concept; it’s a reality with a staggering 600 to 800 million active players every month, capturing a level of engagement that proves the metaverse is already underway without needing an alternate currency system. The focus should be on interoperability—not on tying this evolution to cryptocurrencies or NFTs. We can achieve seamless connections through various means, like established standards, rather than solely relying on cutting-edge tech.

Standardizing the Metaverse

> Cryptocurrency and NFTs drifting away from valuable experiences like Fortnite gameplay is a concern. Connecting a standard definition of value to meaningful experiences is key.

> Implementing standards like file formats in the metaverse, similar to PNG or MP3 files for the web, is crucial for seamless integration across different platforms and engines.

> The evolution of gaming genres and technical capabilities will lead to even more innovative games in the future. The idea of a collaborative, continuous play space in the metaverse, with programming foundations to support it, is a pivotal area for development.

Verse programming language

> The future of the digital world is incredibly thrilling, where millions of creators can collaboratively build expansive environments rather than being constrained by centralized control. I envision a space where people dynamically modify their realities, creating something truly magnificent and alive.

> Verse, our functional logic programming language, is designed for large-scale simulation, allowing developers to create scalable components that can coexist in massive virtual spaces. It simplifies writing complex code and fosters an environment where large-scale multiplayer experiences can flourish, breaking typical player limits.

> One of the core tenets of Verse is the ability to write reliable code that checks for backward compatibility during updates, which is crucial in the constantly evolving metaverse. This type-checking system minimizes the costs and risks associated with live bugs, making it essential for a seamless user experience.

> Ultimately, Verse aims to be the first mainstream language to fully embrace type theory in a user-friendly manner, allowing developers to express mathematical theorems and validate code correctness effectively. This not only reduces runtime errors but also builds trust in the integrity of software within increasingly complex environments.

Concurrency

> Taming concurrency to make it accessible for ordinary programmers is a key challenge. Manual handling of concurrency is complex and error-prone, leading to unpredictable results. The goal is to enable programmers to write code without worrying about concurrency issues through innovative solutions.

> Leveraging transactional memory allows for the scalability needed in the metaverse. By dividing programs into self-contained updates that run in a single-threaded manner, transactions provide a way to automatically scale code for handling millions of concurrent updates, crucial for massive online environments like the metaverse.

> Speculative execution and conflict resolution in transactions enable running millions of updates concurrently without committing conflicting changes to memory. This approach shifts the burden of dealing with concurrency from programmers to language designers, streamlining the process and reducing complexity for developers, ultimately paving the way for large-scale virtual environments.

Unreal Engine 6

> There’s an exciting evolution happening with Verse, where we’re focusing on creating "the ultimate version of the language." We’re iterating quickly in Fortnite’s Unreal Editor to gather valuable feedback from creators, ensuring that each version maintains backward compatibility while we enhance its capabilities.

> Looking ahead to Unreal Engine 6, the goal is to bridge the gap between ease of use for Fortnite developers and the robust features expected by traditional game developers. It's all about enabling seamless integration between both, allowing for unique gameplay experiences where standalone games can interoperate with Fortnite's economy, ultimately addressing key challenges in the gaming industry.

Indie game developers

> One key point I want to highlight is the importance of supporting indie developers through productivity tools and content marketplaces. It's about enabling creators to build their games efficiently and focus on unique gameplay without getting bogged down in creating every element from scratch. The availability of off-the-shelf content allows indie teams to work faster and specialize, ultimately leading to more successful and sustainable projects.

> Another key insight I want to share is the evolution of game development from one-person endeavors to a highly specialized collaborative process. By modularizing content and encouraging specialization, developers can leverage the skills of various experts to create complex and high-quality games efficiently. This approach not only streamlines the development process but also opens up opportunities for indie creators to thrive in the competitive gaming industry.

Apple

> I’ve always held a deep conviction that the current practices by companies like Apple are fundamentally abusive. When you spend your hard-earned money on a device, it’s yours—there’s no reason you shouldn’t be able to install apps from any developer directly, without a 30% fee siphoned off by a gatekeeper. “When you buy a computer or a phone... you own that phone,” and that ownership should come with the freedom to choose how you use it.

> The stifling of competition not only restricts developers but also shapes a toxic gaming landscape. The most visible mobile games often prioritize exploitative monetization over genuine fun, penalizing creativity. It’s disheartening to see that in an ecosystem where “the cost of operating these online games now are enormously high,” it’s the games driven by manipulation that thrive.

> There's a purpose behind this fight against monopolies: the vision of a vibrant, competitive future where innovation flourishes. If we can dismantle the barriers Apple constructs, we can unlock a world where multiple stores and platforms exist—where “competition makes everybody better,” leading to superior products and experiences for consumers. This isn’t just a battle for developers; it’s a quest for a future where all digital commerce is fair and open.

Epic Games Store

> - The Epic Games Store aims to offer a competitive alternative to Steam by prioritizing freedom of choice and a lower revenue cut of 12% to benefit developers and users.

> - While acknowledging criticisms of the Epic Games Launcher's clunky interface and exclusive contracts, improvements are in progress to enhance quality of life features and convenience comparable to Steam.

> - Epic's approach to exclusivity is guided by providing incentives to developers for exclusive deals, emphasizing competition to offer a better supply of games, even though the ultimate goal is to shift towards less exclusivity in the future.

> - The guest points out how soft power dynamics of dominant stores like Steam hinder developers from offering better pricing, creating challenges for smaller stores like Epic to compete based on pricing and UI experience rather than exclusivity.

Future of gaming

> The gaming industry's future hinges on one simple truth: “people play games for fun.” Yet, many recent big titles have failed to deliver that core experience, and as competition for talent intensifies, developers must prioritize creating games that truly engage players.

> The landscape is evolving toward multiplayer experiences that foster social connections; “there’s been a significant shift toward playing together with real-life friends." This trend means larger games can captivate audiences and retain them for longer, while smaller single-player games may only serve as brief distractions in a player's gaming journey.

Greatest games ever made

> There's something magical about games that create a full living world, like Zelda Breath of the Wild or Red Dead Redemption, with incredible attention to detail and depth that draws you in.

> The best games have a soul that shines through the art and design decisions, shaping not only the gameplay but also how players interact with each other in ways worth studying and appreciating.

GTA 6 and Rockstar Games

> Creating games is an intricate challenge, especially when you're setting new standards for quality and realism. "Whatever problems you’re solving today, you don’t know what new problems that will unlock," and that’s the reality of the game development process. It’s about pushing boundaries and responding to what emerges as you build, and sometimes that takes longer than expected.

> There’s immense pressure to deliver consistently high-quality experiences, and it’s a balancing act. "A bad game is bad forever," while "a late good game is eventually released and is good." We strive to learn from live experiences, adapt, and improve continuously, acknowledging that each iteration is part of a larger experiment that evolves with our players.

Hope for the future

> Human connections in virtual worlds like Fortnite are inherently positive, promoting empathy and good interactions. This contrasts starkly with the negativity often seen on text-based platforms, showcasing a divide in social dynamics online.

> Creating immersive digital spaces that foster empathy and joy among humans gives hope for the future, emphasizing the natural goodness and desire for positive connections within people. Pushing boundaries to enable easy empathic connections online is key for cultivating joyful group dynamics.